Crisis, What Crisis?

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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Kiuku on Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:04 pm

Mosbey,

Betsy was right about taxes being constitutional, as generally considered. You gotta realize when you're the the hard core extremist, a radical anything the burden of proof is on you.

The democrats even though they say they are the party of tolerance, take place in the oppression of women just as much. I am frankly disgusted with all liberals and democrats. I'm not a wing nut republican. I'm an independent but I agree with you on several matters.

However, Betsy isn't a radical liberal democrat, as far as I know, so I don't think you are justified in your approach. :)
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Mosbey on Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:04 pm

I understand that taxes are constitutional. From what I can tell however, the income tax, as applied, is not constitutional. Again I point you at the Aaron Russo video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ueEfRXZCVA

If there is something wrong with the Russo analysis, please aim me at a correction. I have seen nothing that counters his highlighted points.

Forgive me if I am wrong Betsy, but Betsy, by default, implies she is a liberal democrat. My intent was not to claim she was a radical. However I was answering the apparent double standard in the US vs. THEM excerpts as follows:

Betsy writes: emphasis is mine.

"Look what THEY did to Kerry and McClellan in 2004. Look what THEY did to Dukakis. WE've tried to take the high road for sooooooooooooooo long and look what happened:
I hate the fact that WE Democrats have to respond in kind. I hate that WE have to get down in the gutter with the right wing(THEM.)
Can you see how for US enough is enough?"

This is not tolerance...

I will try again:
"And btw, the Democratic Party doesn't even come close to "vicious" compared to the Republican Party.”
Please provide evidence to support this. I refuted your claim elsewhere with an actual study when you stated that democrats are more compassionate to the plight of the poor.

Perhaps I have been too harsh in my debating style, but unsupported statements or simply claiming something to be “racist” or “lies” without providing any evidence to the contrary is totally unreasonable. I have asked for,and provided evidence beyond the “because I say sos” numerous times. All of that said, Kuiku, no promises, but I shall attempt to soften my debating tone and manner.
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Kiuku on Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:11 pm

There is something wrong with it, Mosbey, and that is that we abide by the constitution in the United States of America, and we also pay income tax. You gotta do better to prove it right.
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Mosbey on Fri Oct 10, 2008 3:44 pm

So…ummm…we do it, so it is right? Isn’t that a tad circular?

I will make a simple request…the same one Russo asks…

If this is the case, simply show me the law.
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Betsy_Boo on Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:23 pm

The 16th Amendment.

There was a great column today in the paper by Thomas Friedman. He writes for the NY Times so you probably won't want to read it but I will quote him in his response to "Sarah" when she dissed Joe about his view of taxes:
"Gov. Palin, if paying taxes is not considered patriotic in your neighborhood, who is going to pay for the body armor that will protect your son in Iraq? Who is going to pay for the bailout you endorsed? If it isn't from tax revenues, there are only two ways to pay for those big projects--printing more money or borrowing more money. Do you think borrrowing money from China is more patriotic than raising it in taxes from Americans?"

Thank you K...I appreciate your defense. I am very liberal but I do not consider myself a radical. I haven't bombed anything in years.
"We'll always have Paris."

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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Betsy_Boo on Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:28 pm

Mosbey wrote:Betsy,
Rather than post facts and studies refuting you yet again…Let us just assume for the moment that you are indeed correct in your above postings...

The nasty politics of those of us you have labeled as the “vicious” and evil “right-wingers” are truly to blame, and you have for “sooooooooooooooo long” taken the high road to no avail. You admit these actions are “childish. But in (your) opinion this is the most important election (of your) lifetime and it's the only way to stand up to (vicious right-wing) bullies.”

I have long argued that the Democrats are no longer a party of tolerance, thanks for proving my case. :D


“The man who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself”.


Yes...and "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword." I get it. But I'm not going to stand idly by and watch another good person ripped up and lied about. I'm done with that. You HAVE to stand up to bullies or they won't stop.

And btw, I'm not checking out your links because I don't really trust them. Sorry, but if my computer catches a virus I'll be really pissed.
"We'll always have Paris."

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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Mosbey on Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:18 pm

AGAIN:
The Supreme Court ruled that the 16th Amendment, the Income tax amendment, granted “no new powers of taxation.”

I have listed it before…

16th Amendment never properly ratified.

The Supreme Court ruled the 16th Amendment “conferred no new powers of Taxation.”

The income tax as applied to citizens is not legal because it would be a direct tax and is not apportioned as the constitution demands.

Constitutionally, Income is corporate gain, not wages from labor.

The list goes on...any one of these would torpedo the Income tax as we have come to be ensnared by. Together they only leave one option open to the government…Ignore the law and bully anyone who speaks out.

AGAIN: Please show me the law. Considering it is something so simple, someone on this Board must be able to find it.
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Mosbey on Fri Oct 10, 2008 9:50 pm

Again, I am speaking of the income tax as applied to US Citizens, not taxes in general. There is a distinction, Betsy.

From what I can tell, the illegally collected “income taxes” pay interest to the Fed, and are not used to provide Body armor for the troops.

It is actually listed out here very well…in a petition that the Government has refused to answer…(1st Amendment anyone?)

http://www.givemeliberty.org/FreedomDri ... ionTax.htm
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Kiuku on Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:02 pm

No one's gotta show you the law Mosbey. It's a simple case of everyone saying the sky is purple, and you say it is green. Well, it's obvious we've all concluded that the sky is purple, and we could all be wrong, we've been wrong before, but it is incumbent upon you to prove it is green. Not the other way around! It's not the debate I disagree with, just the approach. You can't really expect us to prove to you that taxes are constitutional. I guess they could be considered patriotic, as long as they aren't so high as to border on socialism, and killing our economy. Speaking of which, what is going on? Iceland..GM and Ford reassuring us that they won't declare bankruptcy.

The world aches, apparently, and I don't understand how everyone could be hurting. That's not how it works.

Well, regardless, it's starting to look like a better and better time for the Revolution.
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Mosbey on Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:51 pm

I am not arguing with taxes in general, I am at odds with the application of the income tax, my ninja buddy.

The trouble is, K, you are asking me to PROVE a negative here. One cannot prove that a law does not exist…in place of that, it is not unreasonable for myself and others to ask a simple question of those such as yourself that insistent such a law exists…Show us that law.

A law by nature is a VERY objective thing. It exists, or it does not. The color of the sky is subjective. We might argue about exact shade of that color, but we could all agree that is has some sort of color, correct? You and “everyone” are claim it is raining outside…I see no proof of rain…all I am asking is that you open the window and show me the rain. Puddles and your muddy footprints are not proof of rain.

I do not really expect you to answer. That is not your place. Constitutionally however, the government HAS to answer. It is amazing. Look into it when you have the chance, they simply refuse to answer and have settled on a tactic of preventing the question. That is NOT freedom.

I am not trying to be sarcastic or overly aggressive towards you or any other believer. Last year I was among your ranks…until I did the research. Check them out, if the analysis in any of the references I have posted is incorrect in your opinion, then please, I beg you, direct me to what you feel to be proper sources.

As for the crisis and Iceland, I have not read much beyond Drudge to date about it. Scary stuff…today I watch my portfolio take a major hit. Oh well, there is much more to life than money.
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Kiuku on Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:26 am

Mosbey,

See that's the thing. I don't have to direct you to any proper resources. I don't have to, in your words, not mine "show you the law". I don't disagree with your debate, or argument; just the approach.
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Mosbey on Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:47 am

Let me reiterate from above…we are actually in sort of agreement:

“I do not really expect you to answer. That is not your place. Constitutionally however, the government HAS to answer.”

I provided links to documentation backing up what I was saying…you claimed I was wrong. I asked for support of your argument. In a debate formant, you cannot just flippantly say someone is wrong out of hand without providing any validation of your point. I am sorry you disagreed with my approach…Water under the bridge however and all buddy, thanks for the debate.


Back to the topic at hand.

CRISIS:

Did anyone else catch http://www.humanevents.com/article.php? ... #continueA

A McCain signed letter demanding action by the Democratic controlled Congress on Fannie and Freddie in 2006. All the Dems, Including Obama ignored it and went on fiddling….
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Kiuku on Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:49 pm

Protectionism won't solve credit crisis:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,436571,00.html

Though recently Paulson is on record for greatly supporting the Bailout.
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Kiuku on Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:51 pm

And though just a couple months ago he was confident that we would not enter a recession, he just went on record calling it a slight recession.
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Re: Crisis, What Crisis?

Postby Kiuku on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:05 pm

Former Fed Chief says US now in recession:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081014/us_ ... _volcker_3

How bad, I suppose, remains to be seen.

Is history repeating itself?

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticle ... 0236252361
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