Gaza / Israel

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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby The_Fourth_Craw on Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:33 pm

For the record, I deplore the death of any innocent life, no matter who they are or where.

Meanwhile, in Gaza, I note that white phosphorus has been used again, this time against another UN building. Initially the Israel government stated that they were bombing the compound because it was being used by Hamas militants, they then had to admit publicly that this in fact was not true. Lies, lies and more lies.

The reported body count that I last saw was that 15 Israeli citizens / soldiers had been killed, as opposed to well over 1,000 Gazans, a third of which were children. :cry:

Self defence? I think not!
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby doodoobird on Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:40 pm

The bottom line is that this offensive is a RESPONSE to rockets being launched by Hamas thugs into civilian populated areas. If it were up to Hamas, every single Israeli man women and child would suffer a long gruesome painful death. You cant say Israel has the same intentions. They are fighting for their survival and it is a good thing that they have the means to ensure it. If not, it is safe to say that Israel would not be around today. They are fighting an ideology that views them as satan incarnate. They are fighting an ideology that is very clear for those who care enough to listen to it: KILL THE INFIDEL!!!! We need to stand out of their way and let Israel deal with this pest, this termite. If left unchecked, this termite would gladly bring down the whole house.
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby The_Fourth_Craw on Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:23 am

Actually, I agree, the biggest threat to world peace is islamic extremism. I think we just disagree on how it should be tackled. I do think that both sides have to talk to each other, as they are now doing and stop the killing of innocents. All that does is create more extremists. The same thing is now being proposed for Afghanistan, to sit down and negotiate with the Taliban, because its a no win situation for both sides.

As an example, the British State secretly started talking to the IRA in 1974, as they knew that they had no choice, the killing would have just kept going on and on.
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby doodoobird on Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:21 am

And let me add that it is very very sad that innocent civilians have to die for Israels security, but dare I say it is unavoidable, at least, so long as a certain ideology thrives. But Hamas views their own people as nothing but a tool. If it were otherwise, ask yourself, would they fire rockets from the roofs of their citizens? Would a wanted man hide in the house of a family of ten? They care nothing fore their citizens. For the cause of doing harm to the infidel, great or small, they are expendable. We read the headlines and point are fingers whenever we hear about children being killed in an airstrike, but do we care that the helicopter that launched the missle was under fire from the roof of that same house? No. Some-correction, MANY of us already have preconceived notions of Israel. Of Jews. And the wicked Jews killing innocent children fit perfectly into our notions.
Now, I will be the first to say that the creation of Israel after WW2 in that particular area of the world was a grave mistake. But its over and done with. They aint going nowhere. And will anything short of the complete removal or eradication of the Jews in that corner of the world please those who despise them??? Will any amount of land traded in good faith be enough to appease the Hamas? Will they always find a reason to hate them? Will the Palestinian youth continue to be indoctrinated in the Madrasses to hate their neighbor? I think so. Now, if your Israel, what do you do?
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby Betsy_Boo on Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:51 am

The_Fourth_Craw wrote:Actually, I agree, the biggest threat to world peace is islamic extremism. I think we just disagree on how it should be tackled. I do think that both sides have to talk to each other, as they are now doing and stop the killing of innocents. All that does is create more extremists. The same thing is now being proposed for Afghanistan, to sit down and negotiate with the Taliban, because its a no win situation for both sides.

As an example, the British State secretly started talking to the IRA in 1974, as they knew that they had no choice, the killing would have just kept going on and on.


I have to say I totally agree with you FC. One of the reasons I voted for Obama was that he said we HAVE to be able to talk to each other...even our enemies...in order to bring peace to the world. Hasn't history shown us over and over that violence doesn't work? When are we gonna learn? My hope is that when Obama gets a handle on our economic crisis and ends the Iraq war, he'll set his sights on bringing peace to the Middle East. It's in the world's best interest that things calm the hell down over there.
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby The_Fourth_Craw on Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:00 am

For the record again, I have nothing against the Jewish people, just against those who would slaughter innocents.

There are those in high office in th UK, of Jewish faith and absolute supporters of the State of Israel, who have direct personal experience of the Holocaust. They have gone on record to critisise the current actions and have compared it to events that happened to them and their families in Poland at the hands of Nazi troops. These are suppporters of Israel speaking, not detractors. Now, if even these people are appalled at what is going on, I for one suspect that there are also extremists in office in the Israeli forces.

The vast majority of people in the world want to simply live there lives in peace with their families and friends. It is the extremists on all sides that must be stopped.
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby Betsy_Boo on Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:34 pm

I agree.
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby doodoobird on Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:10 pm

Despite the cease fire, Hamas is still firing rockets into civilian populated areas. No outcry. No protest in the streets. But God Forbid Israel were to defend itself.
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby The_Fourth_Craw on Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:48 pm

Its a "Hearts and Minds" issue. If you treat the innocent civilians with respect, if you feed them, clothe them, build schools / hospitals etc, they will be on your side and will tell the extremists to F*** Off. If you starve them, kill them, injure them and smash their infrastructure, they will listen to the extremists and will beleive everything they say, because at the end of the day, what have they got to lose?

Whats been going on is the latter.
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby doodoobird on Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:22 pm

Hate to be a cynic, but in my defense, my two cents is given from experience. Winning 'hearts and minds' works great on paper. Germany, post world war 2, we learned our lesson from the last world war, instead of punishing Germany, we helped them rebuild. That worked out excellent. Gaza is a very different situation. You can take a look at Iraq and figure out why winning the hearts and minds in Gaza wont work. The Palestinian who accepts any kind of aid from Israel is the Palestinian without pride. Building schools, feeding them, e.t.c, would have to be forced upon them. The ideology that drives them will not allow it. Another issue, to a soldier patrolling a hostile neighborhood, winning hearts and minds usually means two rounds to the chest and one in the brain. Hearts and minds. Being an idealist is noble, but when your life is on the line you tend to lean toward the realist perspective. :wink:
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby Mosbey on Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:57 am

BB States: “One of the reasons I voted for Obama was that he said we HAVE to be able to talk to each other...even our enemies...in order to bring peace to the world. Hasn't history shown us over and over that violence doesn't work?”

History has often shown us just the opposite. Violence sure as hell is not always the answer, but fanatics and extremists can seldom be reasoned with. Neville Chamberlain ‘talked’ to Hitler... Some of the people with whom you want Obama to talk are already burning him in effigy weeks before he is to take office…

Now to pile on my bro DDB’s cynicism…Did winning the “hearts and minds” work for the US in Viet Nam? Human nature again gets in the way. Winning the “hearts and minds” can only work when both sides have a similar outlook and view as to the value of human life.

Now T_F_C states: “If you treat the innocent civilians with respect, if you feed them, clothe them…they will be on your side and will tell the extremists to F*** Off. If you starve them, kill them,…they will listen to the extremists…what have they got to lose?”

The situation is FAR from that simple.

Humor me please---Try to imagine, for a moment, that you are a civilian parent with small children trying to survive day to day through a violent ideological insurgency. (Viet Nam, Gaza…)

One side, call them “Team Kum Ba Yah,” is trying to win your “hearts and minds” by supplying food, water, medicine, et al.

The other, “Team Nasty,” simply shows up randomly in the night and murders the families of those among you labeled “Team Kum Ba Yah collaborators.”

Now, YOU have information useful to both sides…would you:
a) risk the lives of your children by helping “Team Kum Ba Yah?” and possibly be labeled a collaborator?
b) try to protect your family by just keeping quiet?
c) further protect your family by supplying the information to “Team Nasty” thereby proving you are not a collaborator…just in case you were on their hit list?

Take a guess as to what most parents who have truly found themselves in such a horrid situation have actually done?

In Gaza, neither side has the any moral high ground.
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby doodoobird on Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:43 pm

In fact, it aint fair to even judge the Israeli response. We dont live in the same kind of fear they live in over here. I wonder: If the people who scorn Israel for defending itself were living under the fear of daily rocket attacks, would they still have the same views or would they be the ones beating the drums of war louder they anyone?
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby The_Fourth_Craw on Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:08 pm

Team Kum Ba Yah :lol:

Hearts and Minds is not the whole answer, I know that, but it can work in the long run. Its part of changing a mind set. Part of the problem is that there will always be people ready and willing to blow themselves up for any cause, if it means getting revenge for the deaths of their families. There are other ways to deal with this rather than basically slaughtering the innocents, which was totally avoidable. Remember that not all Muslims are crazed lunatics, most are not. Just like not all Jews are crazed lunatics, again, most are not and many do not agree with what went on. I will repeat that 15 Israelies died, which is bad enough; over 1200 Gazans died and well over 5000 were wounded. Does that seem justified? Again, I do not support either side in this, I am only judging it by who has suffered the most and it aint Israel.

Chamberlain did speak to Hitler and was taken for a fool. This is not the same. The current situation in Gaza has not been compared to Apartheid for nothing. Israel are not innocent in this by any means.

At the end of the day, if they do not talk, with concessions on both sides, then we may as well just Nuke the whole area and be done with it, because that is what the ultimate end result will be.

It does not help of course that the whole sorry mess is tied up with religion, but that is a whole different debate! :wink:
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby Betsy_Boo on Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:30 pm

I have to say...if we're not willing to work for peace...to try to reach some kind of compromise what in the hell are we supposed to do? Just throw up our hands and say we can't fix this so go ahead and continue to kill each other? We have to do something. Call me naive...call me a member of "Team KumBaYa". I don't care. Peace is possible if we don't give up.
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Re: Gaza / Israel

Postby doodoobird on Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:13 am

Complete peace will never come in Gaza. At its root, what it really comes down to, is Holy War. The goal is to reach something that resembles peace. But it will ALWAYS be a matter of time before shit hits the fan over there. And if you have not become a cynic over peace in the middle east by this point, then, God bless your heart. Your a hell of a lot more of an optimist then me.
And back to hearts and minds. It CAN help a lot. All am saying is that it will never solve the problem, as it can it many situations. Just not there. But yeah, offering something better then the option of blowing yourself up can prevent some carnage.
The last thing I'll say on this subject is this: The death count may be extremely skewed, but it does not change the fact that this current offensive was started by Hamas. In my opinion, Israel did not do enough. They obviously did not want to deeply penetrate Gaza with soldiers because of the inevitable backlash this would cause when Israeli soldiers start dieing in large numbers (large being 5 here, a dozen there). But it would have been so much more effective for the long term goals of the Israelis. Plus, part of the reason civilian deaths are so high is because the Israelis dont have ground soldiers to verify targets and better pinpoint exactly what IS a target.
Hamas may have sustained some damage during this offensive but they will regroup relatively soon. And it will be a matter of time before we are down this road again.
And the only thing that can bring about a sustained peace over there? In my opinion, Islam has to reform. The voices of extremism have to be stifled or silenced all together.
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